Jul 07 00:00:07 -->	chad (~chad@12-223-95-153.client.insightbb.com) has joined #ruby-lang
Jul 07 00:00:14 <neoneye>	hi chad
Jul 07 00:00:20 <chad>	hi neoneye
Jul 07 00:00:22 <chad>	how's it going?
Jul 07 00:00:35 *	chad was just reading batsman's rubygems bashing in the irc logs
Jul 07 00:00:36 <neoneye>	im soon about to goto us
Jul 07 00:00:39 <chad>	very unfortunate
Jul 07 00:00:41 <chad>	great!
Jul 07 00:01:07 <chad>	long flight to the west coast
Jul 07 00:01:12 <chad>	I wouldn't be looking forward to that :)
Jul 07 00:01:18 <chad>	Have you made your specific travel plans yet?
Jul 07 00:01:31 <chad>	I haven't yet made mine, but I am definitely going to be in California and then Portland
Jul 07 00:01:39 <neoneye>	saturday.. I cannot wait.. 
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Jul 07 00:02:09 <batsman>	chad: I tried to make it clear that I'm deliberately taking rpa-base away from RubyGems' niche to avoid such issues
Jul 07 00:02:31 <neoneye>	we will land in Seattle, then goto oregon/portland and finally goto los angeles/san fransisco
Jul 07 00:02:41 <chad>	batsman: you can avoid "such issues" by not being such an ass.  If RubyGems and RPA don't compete, that stop trashing RubyGems.  Pretty simple, really.
Jul 07 00:03:00 <chad>	neoneye: I'll be in both LA and San Fran
Jul 07 00:04:03 <chad>	batsman: Your rants are usually filled with not-quite-the-truth.  I'm not sure why you devote so much energy to being negative.  It's a pity.  You make good stuff.  Including the RPA code.
Jul 07 00:04:15 <batsman>	chad: plz do say when I trashed it. I've tried to be objective. Are you mistaking dross' comments with mine?
Jul 07 00:04:17 <neoneye>	ok.. I will send you some mails about my tre schedule (it changes all the time.. so I will try to keep you updated)
Jul 07 00:04:46 <neoneye>	tre -> travel
Jul 07 00:05:16 <chad>	batsman: I'm not.  You're quite passive agressive, so I guess it's hard to pick out the exact line.  Anyway, I'm not trying to cause a problem.  That's the last I'll say about it.  I'm just disappointed.
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Jul 07 00:06:33 <batsman>	passive aggressive?  I often express my disagreement with some of the choices RubyGems did, that's true.
Jul 07 00:06:41 <neoneye>	chad: I don't have any detailed information right now.. the easiest is to mail them when I get there
Jul 07 00:06:49 <chad>	cool, neoneye.  please do.
Jul 07 00:07:04 <batsman>	but it's because ppl keep asking "what's RPA, how does it compare to RubyGems, why does it exist at all, etc"
Jul 07 00:07:38 <chad>	so, you're just being defensive I guess?
Jul 07 00:08:21 <chad>	oh well.
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Jul 07 00:08:30 <chad>	dross seems to think that I "complain" about rpa as well.  
Jul 07 00:08:30 <batsman>	I'm trying to explain the differences, and why rpa-base is better for my end goal
Jul 07 00:08:39 <chad>	I don't recall ever having complained about rpa.
Jul 07 00:08:45 <chad>	You usually say why RPA is better in general.
Jul 07 00:08:52 <chad>	And use words like "sane" in contrast with RubyGems
Jul 07 00:09:07 <chad>	And talk about how we have no rhyme or reason behind our designs...
Jul 07 00:09:11 <chad>	randomly progressing
Jul 07 00:09:18 <chad>	though not really progressing since November
Jul 07 00:09:23 <chad>	Anyway, that's enough of that.
Jul 07 00:09:29 <batsman>	well, I've often posted to the ML explaining the problems with the dep management
Jul 07 00:09:52 <chad>	Obviously not a productive topic, but I felt compelled to say something explicit at least once.
Jul 07 00:09:54 <batsman>	and if I say there was no clear path, it's because you didn't give me a better answer when I asked you months ago
Jul 07 00:10:00 <chad>	Now I'll go back to not complaining about RPA.
Jul 07 00:10:16 <chad>	You probably asked me when I had been up all night.
Jul 07 00:10:31 <batsman>	k, then that was a mistake of mine
Jul 07 00:10:52 <batsman>	if I ask you now, could I get useful answers about some of the plans you have for RubyGems?
Jul 07 00:10:57 <chad>	But, the answer is probably still true.  The goal is not to do much more than what we do right now.  Just to tweak, clean, refactor, and test until we have something simple that works as well as it can.
Jul 07 00:11:16 <chad>	If you asked specific questions, you probably could.  Otherwise, I'd be vague. :)
Jul 07 00:11:43 <flgr>	hm, not planning everything might be not as bad as it sounds
Jul 07 00:12:01 <flgr>	remember agile development technics and how this lets your users decide where they want you to go
Jul 07 00:12:03 <chad>	flgr: That's a core part of my philosophy (not just with coding)
Jul 07 00:12:33 <chad>	anyway, as I said, I don't want to cause a problem.  The little unproductive jabs are just getting to me.
Jul 07 00:13:05 <batsman>	chad: I sincerely would like to solve the issue now, so plz do what I did wrong, and I'll try to correct it. If you're interested, I'll tell you what I think was wrong about Rubygems
Jul 07 00:13:15 <batsman>	s/do/do tell/
Jul 07 00:13:31 <ThreeDayMonk>	gah, instiki is nice, but it's got a lot of css randomly inlined into the code
Jul 07 00:13:42 <chad>	Let's consider things partially solved.  I don't have a lot of chat time right now :)
Jul 07 00:13:54 <batsman>	chad: that's a pity, really
Jul 07 00:13:55 <flgr>	ThreeDayMonk: the author is very open towards patches from my experience :)
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Jul 07 00:14:10 <chad>	I'm also not one to get genuinely angry over irc and mailing list exchanges...
Jul 07 00:14:13 <chad>	nor to hold a grudge
Jul 07 00:14:29 <batsman>	do you think I am?
Jul 07 00:14:34 <chad>	no
Jul 07 00:14:36 <chad>	I hope not, at least
Jul 07 00:14:48 <ThreeDayMonk>	flgr: trouble is, the view part needs refactoring
Jul 07 00:14:50 chad chrchr chris2|c1b chrisk Jul 07 00:14:53 <ThreeDayMonk>	I'm hacking it :-S
Jul 07 00:14:55 <flgr>	I'm not sure, but it might be a good idea to do this in private where the possibility of the other guy thinking that you are trying to damage his reputation is void :)
Jul 07 00:14:58 <chad>	and, you did make a good point.  I need to delete that RPA gem since it's busted
Jul 07 00:15:11 <flgr>	ThreeDayMonk: nice, I really like instiki and every patch that fixes a problem with it :)
Jul 07 00:15:15 <batsman>	chad: I'll be looking forward to chatting w/ you to make sure there's no war :)
Jul 07 00:15:29 <chad>	batsman: There isn't a war, don't worry.
Jul 07 00:15:36 <chad>	That would be a total waste of everyone's time.
Jul 07 00:15:49 <chad>	I should have msg'd you instead of talking on #ruby-lang.  Sorry about that.
Jul 07 00:16:11 <batsman>	chad: well, I have to confess I was a bit upset when I realized the problem with the gem -- all I wanted was some testers, and the broken gem dissuaded some :-|
Jul 07 00:16:17 *	neoneye feel reliefed
Jul 07 00:16:25 <chad>	I deleted the gem
Jul 07 00:16:31 *	flgr relieves :)
Jul 07 00:16:41 <chad>	I was traveling and such and didn't think to delete it.  my apologies.
Jul 07 00:16:42 <batsman>	chad: I have no problem talking about that in the open, it's actually better
Jul 07 00:16:43 <flgr>	neoneye: damn you ;)
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Jul 07 00:16:54 <batsman>	so that ppl don't think we're flaming each other in private :)
Jul 07 00:17:04 <chad>	I personally installed it via rubygems and it somehow worked for me.  Must be because I was using RubyGems CVS instead of the installer.
Jul 07 00:17:06 <batsman>	chad: thanks
Jul 07 00:17:06 <chad>	heh
Jul 07 00:17:24 <batsman>	chad: IIRC there was an issue with a missing stub
Jul 07 00:17:48 <chad>	neoneye: I saw that you released a new aeditor version.  Haven't installed it, but the screenshots are looking very promising.
Jul 07 00:17:50 <batsman>	that is,  rpa  would work, but you couldn't install a number of ports, cause  require 'rpa'  would fail, and the unit tests wouldn't pass
Jul 07 00:18:01 <chad>	right
Jul 07 00:18:09 <neoneye>	chad: thx
Jul 07 00:18:36 <batsman>	chad: how much time do you have left? :)
Jul 07 00:18:39 <chad>	Well, the problem is now gone.  If you make another release, you can probably end up with people downloading it.
Jul 07 00:18:42 <neoneye>	chad: this time it hopefully work on windows
Jul 07 00:18:43 <chad>	hard to say, really
Jul 07 00:18:47 <chad>	waiting for my wife to call me for a movie
Jul 07 00:18:57 <chad>	neoneye: now that my laptop has been stolen,
Jul 07 00:18:59 <chad>	I'm using Windows
Jul 07 00:19:02 <chad>	maybe I should try it
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Jul 07 00:19:35 <batsman>	k, then I'll go fast: I felt it was a pity rubygems when ignored eek's proposal back then
Jul 07 00:19:37 <chad>	brb
Jul 07 00:19:47 <neoneye>	buy chad
Jul 07 00:20:03 <blizz>	oh how much is he?
Jul 07 00:20:24 <blizz>	</what-a-joke>
Jul 07 00:20:32 <batsman>	you know, I honestly tried to contribute to RubyGems, but there was a strong barrier :|
Jul 07 00:20:43 <batsman>	oh, later chad
Jul 07 00:23:01 *	dblack 's trusty old HP LJ6 appears to be biting the dust
Jul 07 00:23:22 <dblack>	the rubber rollers on the back have turned to the consistency of chewing gum
Jul 07 00:23:56 <neoneye>	dblack: a printer?
Jul 07 00:24:33 <dblack>	yes
Jul 07 00:25:02 <dblack>	it's been incredibly reliable for years
Jul 07 00:25:26 *	neoneye hasn't had a printer for ages
Jul 07 00:26:07 <neoneye>	dblack: what platform are you on?
Jul 07 00:26:18 <dblack>	neoneye: linux
Jul 07 00:26:42 <neoneye>	ok.. me too
Jul 07 00:27:22 *	neoneye recently switched from freebsd to linux
Jul 07 00:27:33 *	neoneye is linux newbie
Jul 07 00:27:41 *	dblack has been using linux since 1993
Jul 07 00:27:59 *	neoneye has ran freebsd for 3 years
Jul 07 00:28:08 *	dblack is old :-)
Jul 07 00:28:15 <neoneye>	dblack: thats a long time
Jul 07 00:28:20 <flgr>	I've not used linux exclusively yet
Jul 07 00:28:38 <flgr>	just via ssh and cygwin etc.
Jul 07 00:28:47 <dblack>	i've also got a mac which runs a derivative of freebsd
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Jul 07 00:28:52 <dblack>	but i haven't used it much lately
Jul 07 00:29:21 <neoneye>	dblack: out of interest what tools do you use/prefer?
Jul 07 00:29:22 <flgr>	hm, Mac OS X is what I eventually use as my main plattform
Jul 07 00:29:31 <dblack>	neoneye: ruby :-)
Jul 07 00:29:32 <flgr>	but Linux gets closer to it every day
Jul 07 00:29:53 <aztak>	i've heard a lot of nice things about Mac OSX as a development platform...
Jul 07 00:29:56 <dblack>	neoneye: there are so many...
Jul 07 00:30:26 <neoneye>	dblack: what are your programming tools? emacs/vim/other
Jul 07 00:30:54 <dblack>	neoneye: yes, all of the above :-) (well, vim or whatever /bin/vi is linked to on various systems)
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Jul 07 00:31:06 <dblack>	neoneye: i'm very command-line oriented
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Jul 07 00:31:17 <dblack>	even in X i have many terminals running
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Jul 07 00:31:33 <neoneye>	dblack: do you use X11?  what window manager if so?
Jul 07 00:31:45 <dblack>	neoneye: i've been using kde
Jul 07 00:31:47 <aztak>	an aterm with a screen session running in X is a must :)
Jul 07 00:31:51 <dblack>	used to use fvwm
Jul 07 00:32:01 *	neoneye likes screen
Jul 07 00:32:12 *	aztak can't live without screen
Jul 07 00:32:20 *	neoneye has run fvwm2 for a long time
Jul 07 00:32:38 <aztak>	what's wrong with windowmaker? :)
Jul 07 00:32:39 <ThreeDayMonk>	neoneye: I <3 screen
Jul 07 00:32:48 <EvilCHELU>	}{ screen
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Jul 07 00:33:24 *	neoneye now runs kde (recently kde has somehow become much more userfriendly)
Jul 07 00:33:47 <aztak>	actually... to take the "screen" experience to X one should run Ratpoison... I've tried but didn't have the patience to learn using it =P
Jul 07 00:34:25 *	aztak prefers to use his CPU cycles to something else than rendering KDE widgets ;)
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Jul 07 00:41:04 <aztak>	and thus the conversation died..
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Jul 07 00:51:20 <flgr>	huh
Jul 07 00:51:29 <flgr>	I thought SOD wrote his own unit testing framework
Jul 07 00:51:49 <flgr>	and now he falls back to "p a == expected"?
Jul 07 00:51:56 <flgr>	or was that before he wrote his own one?
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Jul 07 00:52:15 <oGMo>	what's wrong with Test::Unit or hwatever?
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Jul 07 00:52:40 <flgr>	I'm fairly happy with it, though it's a bit complex
Jul 07 00:53:01 <oGMo>	heh i was going ot say the same thing for the opposite reason but .. yeah
Jul 07 00:53:08 <oGMo>	brb
Jul 07 00:53:59 Oggu oGMo Jul 07 00:54:27 <batsman>	oGMo: "arbitrary" ordering of the tests (read the archives, it's hard to miss that thread :)
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Jul 07 00:58:51 <oGMo>	...
Jul 07 00:59:15 <oGMo>	batsman: i'm probably unsubscribing soon since it's generating too much traffic and i never read it anyway
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Jul 07 01:09:35 <chad>	sorry about rushing off earlier, batsman.  long phone call.
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Jul 07 01:10:06 *	neoneye 's box is workning like mad on the disk
Jul 07 01:10:17 <batsman>	chad: np... now I'll be the one who'll go soon (it's 1am here)
Jul 07 01:10:38 *	chad is waiting for dinner to be finished (soon)
Jul 07 01:10:55 <chad>	so, re: eek's proposal...
Jul 07 01:10:59 *	neoneye brushes his teeth
Jul 07 01:11:11 <batsman>	well, it's a bit more general than eek's stuff
Jul 07 01:11:21 <chad>	I don't think anyone intended to ignore it.  We just chewed on it for a while.  Eventually, Jim's implementation was meant to address it.
Jul 07 01:11:34 <batsman>	it's the feeling that you didn't look into FreeBSD/Debian's way of doing things
Jul 07 01:11:58 <chad>	That's probably a half-fair statement.
Jul 07 01:12:10 <chad>	None of us looked into FreeBSD's way as far as I know.
Jul 07 01:12:28 <chad>	But, several of us were pretty hardcore into Debian at one point or another.
Jul 07 01:12:32 <batsman>	hah, but eek did for me :)
Jul 07 01:12:37 <chad>	:)
Jul 07 01:13:30 <batsman>	and rpa-base works more like FreeBSD's ports right now
Jul 07 01:13:35 <chad>	right
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Jul 07 01:15:11 <chad>	You have been talking about how we're stuck in a specific (cheapo) format because we have users now.  I don't feel stuck.  Do you think we won't make incompatible changes?
Jul 07 01:15:36 <batsman>	what I don't understand is... if you've used Debian before, why don't you feel the need to have strong guarantees in the pkging system?
Jul 07 01:16:15 <batsman>	so far, the only incompatible change I can think of could be solved at install time, by moving the gemdirs around
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Jul 07 01:16:54 <chad>	what kind of strong guarantee do you mean in this context?  Like the API compatability thing?
Jul 07 01:17:19 <batsman>	I had the feeling (probably wrong) that you were sort of stuck with the design choices that were done in the original 3 days...
Jul 07 01:17:27 <batsman>	for instance, yeah
Jul 07 01:18:43 <chad>	I think you and most of the RubyGems developers are diametrically opposed philosophically on a key (general) issue...
Jul 07 01:18:51 <chad>	and this is where the rub is...
Jul 07 01:19:16 <chad>	I'm trying to remember Martin Fowler's words, jas
Jul 07 01:19:24 <batsman>	enabling vs directing maybe?
Jul 07 01:19:36 <chad>	right
Jul 07 01:19:51 <chad>	Dave talks about it in Eric Raymond's words....
Jul 07 01:19:56 <chad>	mechanism vs. policy
Jul 07 01:20:18 <batsman>	but you were refusing to provide the mechanism...
Jul 07 01:20:23 <chad>	You seem to be fairly firmly parked in the opposite camp, whatever you want to call it.
Jul 07 01:20:38 <batsman>	... because you said the policy couldn't (and shouldn't) be enforced
Jul 07 01:20:40 <chad>	I don't think that's exactly true.
Jul 07 01:20:50 <chad>	though I understand how it may have seemed that way.
Jul 07 01:21:14 <chad>	We just weren't prioritizing that feature, because none of us liked the available options yet.
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Jul 07 01:21:47 <batsman>	I believe there's a great benefit in having a separate team, specialized in packaging. Policies help them in their task.
Jul 07 01:22:14 <chad>	I believe that could be useful, but I'm not interested in participating in it (thus, RPA and RubyGems are not the same thing)
Jul 07 01:22:18 <batsman>	but in the end, Jim implemented what comes down essentially to eek's proposal
Jul 07 01:22:25 <chad>	exactly
Jul 07 01:22:31 <chad>	So, it was eventually addressed
Jul 07 01:22:42 <chad>	Just took a while for people to come around to it.
Jul 07 01:22:57 <batsman>	so you can see why I would feel that it was first ignored, and only accepted *when* Jim did it
Jul 07 01:23:07 <chad>	Not really ignored
Jul 07 01:23:12 <chad>	There was a lot of discussion about it :)
Jul 07 01:23:18 <chad>	We just didn't agree.
Jul 07 01:23:48 <batsman>	my feeling at that time was that the list as a whole wasn't doing the effort to really think about the issue
Jul 07 01:24:03 <batsman>	(I'm being completely open as you can see)
Jul 07 01:24:10 <chad>	sure
Jul 07 01:24:19 <chad>	It's hard to gage thinking effort via a mailing list
Jul 07 01:24:33 <chad>	Personally, I thought about it on the way to and from work in the car for more than 2 weeks
Jul 07 01:24:40 <batsman>	I saw several misunderstandings in the versioning issue, despites lots of effort to explain it
Jul 07 01:24:50 <batsman>	including a patch that did it
Jul 07 01:25:22 <chad>	To be fair,
Jul 07 01:25:28 <chad>	we probably did ignore that patch.
Jul 07 01:25:46 <batsman>	it certainly looked so :-|
Jul 07 01:25:52 <chad>	Sorry for that.
Jul 07 01:26:21 <chad>	There was something about the patch that I didn't like, but at that point I was really getting tired of talking about versioning (and I was traveling on business enough to wear me out completely)
Jul 07 01:26:25 <chad>	So I let it slip
Jul 07 01:26:28 <batsman>	and another problem I had was that RubyGems didn't seem eager to review some of the original choices
Jul 07 01:27:11 <batsman>	for instance, the 1 gem == 1 dir thing, or the YAML/gzip/base64 format
Jul 07 01:27:36 <chad>	I don't really remember you bringing up the 1 gem == 1 dir thing, so I'm not sure what's wrong with it 
Jul 07 01:27:51 <chad>	And, you're right about the YAML/gzip/base64 thing.  We weren't eager to review it.
Jul 07 01:27:55 <batsman>	IMHO POSIX tar + gzip is better, and I'd be happy to contribute rpa-base's code if you think it can be useful
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Jul 07 01:28:37 <batsman>	oh, the problem with 1 gem == 1 dir is that you have to add lots of special cases for stuff in bin/, ri integration, lib stubs, etc
Jul 07 01:29:01 <chad>	I guess the only negative is you couldn't create self-installing tar.gz files, but it's probably true that most people won't run: ruby my-lib.gem
Jul 07 01:29:15 <batsman>	it seemed to me that you took a solution (1 gem == 1 dir) and then invented the need for it later: "you can have several versions at a time!"
Jul 07 01:29:38 <chad>	oh, no.
Jul 07 01:29:51 <chad>	we wanted multiple versions at a time to begin with
Jul 07 01:30:24 <batsman>	k, I think eek's original idea, which I implemented in rpa-base, solves it in a cleaner way
Jul 07 01:30:32 <chad>	it's similar to the way that GNU tool works...what is it called?  man, my memory sucks.
Jul 07 01:30:42 <dross>	automake?
Jul 07 01:30:44 <batsman>	stow ?
Jul 07 01:30:44 <chad>	it's also how Apple works
Jul 07 01:30:45 <chad>	no
Jul 07 01:30:47 <chad>	yea
Jul 07 01:31:00 <chad>	sorry, Apple's .app files I mean
Jul 07 01:31:14 <batsman>	oic
Jul 07 01:31:34 <batsman>	I'm not sure cherry-picking is good for libs
Jul 07 01:31:36 <chad>	dross: what was my devious comment on the mailing list?  I didn't realize I had a childish attitude.
Jul 07 01:31:47 <chad>	what do you mean exactly by cherry-picking?
Jul 07 01:32:04 <batsman>	require_gem "foo", "0.3.1"; require_gem "bar", "0.6.3"  etc
Jul 07 01:32:12 <chad>	ahh
Jul 07 01:32:20 <batsman>	Jim was advocating for having all the deps in a single file, per project
Jul 07 01:32:34 <batsman>	... fairly recently, in ruby-talk
Jul 07 01:32:39 <chad>	yea
Jul 07 01:33:10 <batsman>	when you have the concept of 'distribution release' (à la FreeBSD), you can say  require_gem "foo", "1.0"
Jul 07 01:33:12 <chad>	dross: were you talkign about this:
Jul 07 01:33:12 <chad>	If we are lucky, Mauricio will release an RPA port of RubyGems, which
Jul 07 01:33:12 <chad>	we can use to install RPA. ;)
Jul 07 01:33:13 <ayrnieu>	a
Jul 07 01:33:33 <batsman>	where 1.0 is the "global API" declaration
Jul 07 01:34:57 <chad>	dross: I don't think batsman would have interpreted that as being rude.  More of a friendly jab in continuation of his own irc jabs.  batsman?
Jul 07 01:35:20 <chad>	I thought the idea of package managers recursively installing themselves ad infinitum was pretty funny
Jul 07 01:35:30 <chad>	batsman: I'm not sure I get one what you mean there.  Can you elaborate?
Jul 07 01:35:32 <batsman>	chad: no, I had no problem with that -- I continued the joke (remember rpa install instiki ... :)
Jul 07 01:35:54 <chad>	right
Jul 07 01:36:07 <chad>	I guess that's the childish thing that dross faulted me on.  Sorry to have offended you, dross.
Jul 07 01:36:17 <batsman>	chad: yes, the idea in our case is having RPA releases, where all the libs in the release work ok together
Jul 07 01:36:29 <chad>	ahh, i see what you mean now.
Jul 07 01:36:30 <batsman>	so you don't ask for a particular version of a lib
Jul 07 01:36:44 <batsman>	you ask for 'the version that worked with RPA 1.0"
Jul 07 01:36:50 <chad>	that would be technically possible with RubyGems, but not in as controlled a way, right?
Jul 07 01:37:00 <batsman>	and then you use the same "RPA version" for all libs
Jul 07 01:37:07 <chad>	right
Jul 07 01:37:12 <dross>	batsman: you just have to make sure the RPA database has version numbers and conflict assignments like FreeBSD database packages
Jul 07 01:37:21 <dross>	*FreeBSD package database
Jul 07 01:37:33 <batsman>	yeah, it couldn't be as strict as RPA, since it's not controlled, but something could be done, I believe
Jul 07 01:37:38 <dross>	and that its up to date of course
Jul 07 01:38:08 <batsman>	it feels better than encouraging 'cherry-picking' and selling that as a desirable feature
Jul 07 01:39:01 <chad>	batsman: In practice, I don't believe many people will cherry pick
Jul 07 01:39:11 <chad>	But I like the capability for myself when I need it.
Jul 07 01:40:45 <batsman>	you see, that's the sort of tech. discussion I would have wanted to have months ago 
Jul 07 01:40:49 <chad>	Now I should really go and watch this movie with my wife instead of sitting here in front of irc like the geek that I am.
Jul 07 01:40:56 <batsman>	but I was frustrated cause we never got to that point
Jul 07 01:41:10 <chad>	Oh well.  Live and learn.
Jul 07 01:41:12 <chad>	Now we're having it.
Jul 07 01:41:12 <batsman>	k chad, later :)
Jul 07 01:41:22 <chad>	good night
Jul 07 01:41:27 <batsman>	yeah, and sorry if I bashed RubyGems
Jul 07 01:41:41 <chad>	That's OK.  Just don't let it happen again ;)
Jul 07 01:41:55 <chad>	unless you're talking to me (or Jim, Paul, David, Rich, etc.) ;)
Jul 07 01:42:10 <neoneye>	buy chad.. hopy you track down your laptop
Jul 07 01:42:15 <chad>	I'd still like to hear wtf dross was going on about, not that it really matters.
Jul 07 01:42:23 <chad>	thanks, neoneye, but I'm afraid there isn't much hope.
Jul 07 01:42:26 <chad>	It's somewhere in Europe
Jul 07 01:42:26 <chad>	heh
Jul 07 01:42:31 <chad>	I'll just have to eat it and buy another
Jul 07 01:43:04 <batsman>	chad: what I say is in the open, so you'd spot it anyway :P
Jul 07 01:43:24 <chad>	true.  for example, on the rpa web page
Jul 07 01:43:25 <chad>	heh
Jul 07 01:43:54 <batsman>	really? plz point to the text I should change
Jul 07 01:44:09 <chad>	You don't need to change anything.  It wasn't really "bashing" there.
Jul 07 01:44:15 *	neoneye is tired, will goto bed now
Jul 07 01:44:24 <chad>	Just obviously turned into "Why RPA is better than RubyGems".  No reason to fix it.
Jul 07 01:44:26 <--	neoneye has quit ("using sirc version 2.211+KSIRC/1.3.10")
Jul 07 01:44:55 <batsman>	chad: well, I do explain the #1 advantage RubyGems has (multiple versions)
Jul 07 01:45:23 <batsman>	but then, what else should I add to make it as unbiased as possible?
Jul 07 01:45:41 <chad>	I don't think there's a need to make it unbiased.
Jul 07 01:46:02 <batsman>	oh, I'd like to
Jul 07 01:46:18 <chad>	I'll look at it again over the next day or two
Jul 07 01:46:27 <batsman>	thx
Jul 07 01:47:06 <batsman>	mm probably this   "no implementation 'short-cuts' that would make it less effective a support for RPA".
Jul 07 01:47:33 <batsman>	it reflects my feeling at that time about  1 gem == 1 dir
Jul 07 01:47:34 <chad>	That's probably it.
Jul 07 01:47:52 <chad>	I seem to remember thinking that some of the wording sounded like: "And RPA isn't poorly designed like RubyGems"
Jul 07 01:47:53 <chad>	heh
Jul 07 01:48:56 <batsman>	heh, I'll change it if I find it or you tell me where it is :P
Jul 07 01:49:03 <chad>	will do.
Jul 07 01:49:25 <chad>	I'm not too worried about it.  The web page wasn't really a pungent example.
Jul 07 01:49:26 <chad>	heh
Jul 07 01:49:27 -->	ljlane (ljlane@66.93.83.133) has joined #ruby-lang
Jul 07 01:49:41 <bish0p>	Perhaps I'm off base, but isn't RPA a managed by a group repository and gems more of an unmanaged, anybody publish a gem, thing?
Jul 07 01:49:49 bigcoder bighead bish0p bitserf Jul 07 01:49:50 <chad>	exactly
Jul 07 01:49:51 <batsman>	bish0p: yes
Jul 07 01:50:14 <batsman>	bish0p: the issue was with RubyGems <=> rpa-base
Jul 07 01:50:15 <bish0p>	so, it seems that gems would be a good tool for RPA to use, but RPA doesn't replace gems.
Jul 07 01:50:51 <batsman>	bish0p: haha, I'll point you to the (somewhat biased) answer in the FAQ about why it makes sense for RPA to have a separate packaging system
Jul 07 01:51:01 <chad>	rpa-base and rubygems overlap 
Jul 07 01:51:09 <chad>	batsman's faq will help explain it :)
Jul 07 01:51:50 <batsman>	the problem is that they overlap, but since they have different end-goals, we cannot agree on what they should provide
Jul 07 01:51:53 ---	Wardust|work is now known as Wardust
Jul 07 01:52:34 *	bish0p reads the Rpa_FAQ page so he doesn't ask FAQs 
Jul 07 01:52:47 *	chad actually goes awway now.
Jul 07 01:52:48 <chad>	later all
Jul 07 01:53:18 <batsman>	bye chad